I'd like to open this up to discussion of opinions and experiences.
The background is that my front swaybar endlinks have fused, with seemingly no chance of removal without cutting them off. So I'm considering just cutting them off and not even worrying about them anymore. The only downside it seems is slightly more body roll...
Benefits would be getting rid of a possible troublesome component (end links seem to wear quickly, especially with lots of off-road travel). Easier service of suspension (not having to worry about taking the end-links off). And of course, much increased articulation, and seemingly a smoother ride when off road.
Alternatives to removal would be devising a disconnect, (but all disconnects I've seen seem to almost be more hassle than they are worth) or just replacing them with an Smaxx endlink.
So... does anyone have experience driving pavement and off road without a front swaybar? Any opinions?
I thought this was an interesting comparison with and without:
Try it... worst that happens is you don't like it and end up getting the Smaxx endlinks or a disconnect. From what I understand, and what you've told me as well, our trucks inherently have less body roll when lifted, and it's a known fact that frequent offroaders often run without sway bars.
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We have less (iirc) because it pulls more on our end links which provide more tension and combine that with our higher upgraded spring rate, we have a stiffer suspension that equates to less roll. So as soon as you take the end links off you'll have more roll than before. I don't think for a daily removing endlinks is a good idea, if its a straight trail truck (no tb is) then its ok.
Only White Lifted TB in Jerzey on 33's
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Not sure what your budget is but if you want pretty much indestructible end links, that are removable, greaseable, and rebuildable, then I would recommend the JKS Manufacturing end links.
Its the rears that need some work on the frame side because when bolting in the stainless posts, they end up at too much of an angle and the links cannot slide on. Plus the brake lines are in the way. Thats why in the rear picture you see some metal extensions so that the posts end up perpendicular to the frame and out of the way of the brake lines.
As for experience, I have yet to disconnect the front and have not had articulation problems. The rears are a different story.
If you remember my CampNL trip last year, I snapped my rear anti-sway bar in two. I got it replaced, and this year at CampNL, I made sure to disconnect the rears. When I did, I finally saw what the stress did to the links. On both rear links, where the poly bushing sits, the tubing was elongated into ellipses. The crazy articulation on the trail put so much stress on the whole system that the end links elongated and when they reached their limit, the bar sheared!
Also for the rear, I added limiting straps so that when I disconnect, I don't over-articulate and reach the length limit of the FabTech DirtLogic shocks. For the fronts, I don't think I need to worry. Even if I disconnect, the limit of the IFS is less than the coil-over/shock limit.
AG
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I'm running no links front or rear. There is the obvious body roll, although my stance is a tad wider than yours (wheels/spacers). The rear isn't too bad with the air bags and spring combo I have, but the front does take a bit to get used to. Best thing to do is just try it.
I thought you and Bill had done it either at one time or were currently doing it.
A wider stance would prevent rollover more, but at the same time, it doesn't make any real difference to body roll. Sounds like next time I get under the vehicle I'll be taking a recip to the front links. I'm not sure I'm going to remove the rear yet. It already flexes a bit better than the front... although I do hate how it hangs down so far and hits everything in the trail.
What a timely question. Story of my rear: The OEM end links crapped out around 40K miles. Replaced with Spicers, which bent and broke around 60K, so IIRC I put in Moogs just before the MORA trip. Left them on for that trip, until the axle broke. Found one bushing bracket also broken. When I upgraded to the EXT axle, I left the sway bar off altogether and enjoyed less stuff hanging down to get hung up. But I was getting more concerned about body roll and the increased bump steer because of nothing in the front, so I bought a new bracket and two new bushings and got a SuspensionMAXX kit to try them out. Didn't install it until last Friday when the poop hit the fan on the OS about the center rods breaking due to inadequate angular accommodation. Larry did an emergency redesign, and is in the middle of some retrofits now, and I put my set on to see if I could figure out where the stress and excessive angles were coming from. The angles are right at the limit for the original eyelet holes, and Larry's change should give back some safety margin, and I think one of the big contributors to the problem is the axle shift to the passenger side if you don't have an adjustable panhard bar. If you're lifted more than 2", I strongly suggest saving up for an adjustable panhard bar, either from Suicide Doors or from Neilage. More news on this later. As of today, I have the SuspensionMAXX original design kit in, and will look for signs of rod stress over the next couple of weeks.
In the front, my OEM links were shot by 40K like the rear. Removed them for a while. Didn't like the body roll on the twisty mountain roads between me and the desert, but got used to it. Put on the JKS after Alek's experience and they worked fine, until one worked loose and I lost the attachment pin and bolt one day. So I just kept one side off like it was permanently disconnected. There was a slight misalignment for me, a bit different than what Alek was seeing, that caused excessive stress and I should have reworked the mount a bit. But I didn't. Put on new links before MORA, but ended up breaking one of my front bushing brackets in Moab, so I took off the links and just tywrapped it up. After the new 33's and front springs and Mark's 1/2" spacers, and no anti-sway bar, I was getting scary bump steer whenever one tire would compress more than the other on normal freeway bumps. Fiddled with alignment, but nothing totally cured that. So I wanted to put the bar back on, so I bought the bracket and two new bushings and put them all in on Saturday with a SuspensionMAXX link set. Now the bump steer is mostly gone because both sides go up and down closer to the same amount. Haven't been wheeling with the bars back in yet. Looks like a relatively easy job to remove one side of the SuspensionMAXX bars, but it takes a socket wrench and a fixed wrench to do. Larry hasn't come up with a disconnectable design that takes out enough of the central bar yet. If you only remove a portion, then the ends could still hit.
So what are my intentions? Not sure yet. Haven't done hard stuff WITH the bar in the front for a while, but articulation is looking less and less important than other things. With the transfer case doing a pretty good job of locking front to rear, if I have good traction on BOTH rear tires, then one in the air in the front isn't going to leak a lot of torque. As seen on my Elliot Mine youtube video. And if one rear tire loses traction, the G80 engages, and stops torque leakage, so again, front tire articulation is less important. Just have to modulate the throttle to not overstress the working side of the front drivetrain.
Very good info to digest. Custom front quick disonnects is a winter project of mine. If I don't think there is any reasonable gain from the mod, I'll just go back to the original (aftermarket) set-up. No love lost.
Having quick disconnects, my left front tire would have tucked up in the wheel well more, thereby lowering my center of gravity. My TB was very close to rolling at that angle with the front sway bar connected. Kinda sketchy when I got out.
I'm pretty interested in this. I am trying to figure out the reason to get Nielage quick discos. What are the problems with running stockers? Not to hijack the thread, but I am wondering wether or not just losing it all wouldn't be a bad idea?
Lift, shocks, wheels and tires installed...need some armor now.
I haven't messed with the rear yet, but I'm thinking with a heavy roof load, it may be worth keeping the rear sway intact, at least for road use. But I'll mess with the rear at a later date.
As for the front, remove it, it sucks. Life is so much better without.
For those of you that have removed/disconnected your fronts, have you had any problems with snap oversteer? I noticed when I had my Hotchkis rear bar, the rear of my TB would snap out, usually on freeway onramps or round-abouts. It was great for drifting, and luckily never happened when my wife was driving, but you had to be careful
Now that I have the S Maxx links in the front, and have re-isntalled the stock rear bar, no more snap oversteer.
The front unhooked on road is no big deal. The rear unhooked takes some different driving to feel safe. I would keep the rear one if you ever do and sport style driving.
I hate to advocate weird chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone...but they've always worked for me.
JamesDowning wrote: As for the front, remove it, it sucks. Life is so much better without.
I'll add a qualifier to that... It sucks for off road... Be careful, as handling will be degraded on the street!
Mike
I wholeheartedly beleive it feels better on the road too. A little more body lean in the corners, but nothing dangerous.
As for snap oversteer... I haven't encountered any problems, of course I don't drive this thing like a sports car (it's not!). The rear only skids out when I want it to.
I don't know that it is better, but it is not bad at all, just different handling. It feel beter pulling over the curb in and out of driveway. It seems to handle bumps and cracks form construction better, but it does not feel as solid on enterance and exit ramps.
I hate to advocate weird chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone...but they've always worked for me.
bartonmd wrote: I'll add a qualifier to that... It sucks for off road... Be careful, as handling will be degraded on the street!
Mike
I wholeheartedly beleive it feels better on the road too. A little more body lean in the corners, but nothing dangerous.
As for snap oversteer... I haven't encountered any problems, of course I don't drive this thing like a sports car (it's not!). The rear only skids out when I want it to.
I'm sure it's doable, but you won't want to go hit your favorite off-ramp at normal speed, without having gotten used to the handling first... You also won't want to give it to your wife to drive, without warning her of the different handling... This is particularly the case if your wife is like mine, and drives and corners the TB like the Neon she had before (like a F-ing NASCAR)...
HARDTRAILZ wrote:I don't know that it is better, but it is not bad at all, just different handling. It feel beter pulling over the curb in and out of driveway. It seems to handle bumps and cracks form construction better, but it does not feel as solid on enterance and exit ramps.
I'd definately believe that... Had a front disconnect broken on my S-10 at one point, and it felt "nicer" going over different terrain, and into driveways and such... Handling was scary, though, compared to with the front anti-roll bar working...
after installing the MarkMC lift both front and rear with Tahoe springs, 1.5" wheel spacers with H3 rims and tires, BDS 5500's in back, and Bilstien HD's up front I fell like I am not getting any body roll ON the road. The springs are pretty compressed up front and so stout in back, I am almost convinced that the ride would almost be better with both back and front disconnected. Maybe I am just still used to having what I thought was a lot of body roll in the stock configuration? After the install, it all seems pretty stiff and more than capable to limit the body roll?
Lift, shocks, wheels and tires installed...need some armor now.
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