Offroad Trailblazers and Envoys

Diagnosing 4wd Confusion...thought it was solved...its not:(

Something not working right?

by plaen » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:54 pm

Mudwheelin wrote:The service light comes on only sometimes when I start it up. It also comes on when I try to put it in 4hi.


I had the same problem, it was very intermittent on mine, not saying It's the same, but in awd mine would crow hop, and sometimes not engage the front, the axle locked up, but the tc wasn't sending power to the front. I ended up replacing the encoder motor sensor, and that fixed the service light.

The easiest way I found to test it is to pull the motor off and pull the sensor out, and hook it up to a meter, It's essentially a potentiometer, I didn't measure the new one, but from the old os, it should change resistance when the ring is turned. My old one stayed put at 6.9k ohms, and open at 7 and 9 oclock with the pins facing down. I would suspect that to be the cause, as the 4x4 test flow chart leads you to believe It's all ok, and saying your front axle doesn't stay disconnected. Another way without pulling the motor is to connect it to a tech 2 and command the motor to specific states and see what the sensor says, but that's likely to cost some.

I ordered the sensor from rockauto, It's an ac delco part, part # 89059276.
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by Trail X » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:04 pm

Mudwheelin wrote:The service light comes on only sometimes when I start it up. It also comes on when I try to put it in 4hi.


Strange that it comes on immediately after startup sometimes. Does it ever happen when in 2WD mode? or only when starting the truck when a 4WD mode?

I wish I could get my hands on your vehicle to really take a look.

Do you know anyone else with a working 4WD TB? You might try swapping front end actuators. This would be a fast swap, and would help greatly with diagnosis.
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by Mudwheelin » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:20 pm

The service light comes on, on start up regardless of it being in 2hi or 4hi. I dont know anyone else in calgary with a tb that I could quickly swap parts with...I wish I lived closer to you guys so that you could get your hands on the TB lol. Also plaen, Im not good with electrical stuff, but if I find someone with the tools and know how I will get them to do that test. If the parts (sensor, actuator, and whatever else) arent to expensive, maybe I should just swap them all out? I just did the 4wd disconnect, so Im not sure I want to try the awd sleeve yet, unless its not expensive or to hard to do.
I should also add...it doesnt happen everytime on start up.
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by plaen » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:01 pm

Mudwheelin wrote:The service light comes on, on start up regardless of it being in 2hi or 4hi. I dont know anyone else in calgary with a tb that I could quickly swap parts with...I wish I lived closer to you guys so that you could get your hands on the TB lol. Also plaen, Im not good with electrical stuff, but if I find someone with the tools and know how I will get them to do that test. If the parts (sensor, actuator, and whatever else) arent to expensive, maybe I should just swap them all out? I just did the 4wd disconnect, so Im not sure I want to try the awd sleeve yet, unless its not expensive or to hard to do.
I should also add...it doesnt happen everytime on start up.


The encoder ring is 67 us dollars, I think that's not too expensive, but some may. The better way, if you don't feel comfortable around a meter, is to find a place that has a high end scan tool that can command the motor, it maybe a dealer... Some of the other Canadians may know a better place. It sounds to me that would be the best cause if I really had to guess. If you have someone that can turn the switch, you can pull the front actuator and watch it move and see if it turns on the 4x4 service light, if it doesn't, it could be something in the disconnect binding up, or if the axle locks together, tested by lifting a wheel and turning it. I would assume it does lock together from your testing post, which leads me to believe It's something with the encoder ring, since the motors sound like they are moving.

The actual replacement of the ring is really easy, four bolts on the motor, and then popping the plastic cover off, and the ring just pulls out, and the connector just pulls off. Hardest part for me was disconnecting the harness from the motor, since It's clipped to the top of the tc.
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by Mudwheelin » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:50 pm

No the price isnt bad at all. That part here in canada would be double that lol. I think ill replace the whole motor and whatever ring your talking about. Thank you very much for the info. Im going to have to make a trip to the US to visit some of you guys! And go wheelin! Theres some trailvoy guys here in calgary, but they all went with the lowered look... anyways, James, I think Im going to try that awd sleeve you were talking about. I have my old disconnect sitting on the work bench collecting dust. So I may as well try that out. Ill take it apart and take good pictures so someone can tell me what it needs in order to do the awd sleeve. I believe most of the parts in it exploded...
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by plaen » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:43 pm

Mudwheelin wrote:No the price isnt bad at all. That part here in canada would be double that lol. I think ill replace the whole motor and whatever ring your talking about. Thank you very much for the info. Im going to have to make a trip to the US to visit some of you guys! And go wheelin! Theres some trailvoy guys here in calgary, but they all went with the lowered look... anyways, James, I think Im going to try that awd sleeve you were talking about. I have my old disconnect sitting on the work bench collecting dust. So I may as well try that out. Ill take it apart and take good pictures so someone can tell me what it needs in order to do the awd sleeve. I believe most of the parts in it exploded...


The whole motor is also an option, since there is aftermarket motors, some come with the ring, and usually say assembly. For the awd sleeve, it replaces the fork, the collar, and the 2 gears, I don't have the part number handy, but that's what it replaces, since It's already out, I would pull it apart and see what it needs before ordering all new parts.

Let us know how it goes.
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by Mudwheelin » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:06 am

The only thing Im concerned about with the awd sleeve...is can I still select 2hi and 4hi? Ill post pics of the disonnect tomorrow to see if you guys can help me figure out what it needs. So stupid question...the ring is in the encoder motor right? If so I think ill just replace the motor.
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by plaen » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:32 am

Mudwheelin wrote:The only thing Im concerned about with the awd sleeve...is can I still select 2hi and 4hi? Ill post pics of the disonnect tomorrow to see if you guys can help me figure out what it needs. So stupid question...the ring is in the encoder motor right? If so I think ill just replace the motor.


Yes, the awd sleeve is from the rainier and the saab that have a different tc, using it in place of the gears just means the front axle is no longer disconnectable, 2hi and 4hi/Lo will still work like normal. The ring is a small circle inside the top of the motor assembly, it can be replaced separately, or the entire motor can be replaced, or both depending if you buy one with or without the ring already installed.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=589974 is one example, it it the entire assembly the ring sits under the black cover on the right side where it mounts to the tc. Rockauto doesn't have any that are just the motor, but run around 150-175 us.
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by Mudwheelin » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:17 am

Ok Im a bit lost. If the front axle is no longer disconnectable, wouldnt it always be in 4hi then? Also I thought the encoder motor was the thing that mounts to the side of the disconnect...? I guess I really have know Idea what the heck Im talking about. Sorry if Im driving you nuts with all the questions, but I really appreciate all your help.
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by plaen » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:29 am

Mudwheelin wrote:Ok Im a bit lost. If the front axle is no longer disconnectable, wouldnt it always be in 4hi then? Also I thought the encoder motor was the thing that mounts to the side of the disconnect...? I guess I really have know Idea what the heck Im talking about. Sorry if Im driving you nuts with all the questions, but I really appreciate all your help.


The sleeve will just eliminate the disconnectable portion of the front axle disconnect, if the tc is in 2hi, no power would be sent to the front, 4hi/Lo would send power to the front wheels. It would function how it does normally, with selectable 2hi/4hi/lo. all the sleeve does is replace the 2 gears, the shift fork, and the collar that locks both sides together.

There is 2 motors, one on the disconnect, and one on the tc, the one I linked is from the tc, which has the ring in it.

The articles section has some good reading on how everything all works together, it may give a little more indepth explanation than I can from my phone.
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by Mudwheelin » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:58 am

What you are saying makes more sence now. I wonder why GM wouldnt have done it to all our suvs...either way, Im going to go for it and try it out on my spare disconnect. Ill post pics tomorrow.
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by The Roadie » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:19 pm

Mudwheelin wrote:Ok Im a bit lost. If the front axle is no longer disconnectable, wouldnt it always be in 4hi then? Also I thought the encoder motor was the thing that mounts to the side of the disconnect...? I guess I really have know Idea what the heck Im talking about. Sorry if Im driving you nuts with all the questions, but I really appreciate all your help.
Ummmm, we sort of assume folks read all the relevant articles before asking questions. Did we assume too much?
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by Mudwheelin » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:02 pm

Yes you did assume to much, but thats ok, ill forgive you just this once.
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by Mudwheelin » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:09 pm

James...I took pictures of the disconnect tonight:) It was very dirty! I could not see any damage to any parts on the inside...? The outside of the disconnect that connects to the cv shaft looks very bad. Bearings bent,missing and the seal looks ripped. For some reason my computer isnt letting me upload these pictures. Can I please send them to someones email so they can post them? Im really looking forward to trying the awd sleeve:)
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by DirtyBacon04 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:36 pm

You can send them to me. I'm going through this whole thing right now, too.

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by Mudwheelin » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:55 pm

DirtyBacon04 wrote:You can send them to me. I'm going through this whole thing right now, too.

whittaker.michael89@yahoo.com


Cools thanks man. I just sent the pictures to you. Hopefully you have better luck getting them posted on here then I did.
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by DirtyBacon04 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:11 am

These are the pics from MudWheelin (gross)

Image
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by Mudwheelin » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:19 am

Awesome! Thank you. Alright James, what does it need? lol
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by DirtyBacon04 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:23 am

....just though i'd re comment on how disgusting that is... :puker: :pukel:
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by fishsticks » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:26 am

Mudwheelin wrote:what does it need?


Rebuilt.
I own too many vehicles now. Let's leave it at that.
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