Completed: Sunday 6/3 Badlands Offroad park Attica, IN

[HARDTRAILZ]

Damn the luck.

[bartonmd]

Loading everything up was kind of fun, though... Matt's 3 passengers started responding to "Minions"...

"Minions, put my winch in the back of Wink's TB" and they start scurrying around. Nice guys, it was just comedy...

(Put my 2" receiver winch in the second receiver in the back of my truck, to pull Matt's truck up on the trailer, and didn't want it bouncing around in the back of the truck, or leaving it in the top receiver for the Minions to drop the tailgate and crush the solenoid box, so I had them put it in the back of Wink's truck, and we took it to my house)

Mike

[Regulator1175]

Where the drive shaft broke (and semi-likely the driver's side control arm bent) was when I was spotting in the front, trying to get him up the ledge, I couldn't see that there was a boulder causing problems for the drive shaft. This is because I couldn't see that the opposite corner as I was standing (driver rear) had spat out all of the rocks and was sitting down about 1.5' farther than last time I had seen it. We stacked up rocks in the hole, and had him get a couple feet of speed going to bump up the ledge, and he was ALMOST there, to the point that I couldn't see why he wasn't climbing up. As he backed down, and I was looking in the side to see what he was hitting, the drive shaft was off. The sheetmetal straps had broken. The control arms likely got bent as I was pulling him up that ledge, because he had no real control over the direction he was going, and I'm sure it drug his rear end up the deeper part of the ledge.

Mike

It is a strait line across the entire truck that hit. Both control arms are bent in line with where the drive shaft got hit. I am sure it had to be one of the large chunks of concrete that were getting the better of me at the top.

I am really looking forward to seeing what the video shows.

[wink]

Had a good time despite what happened and was still able to hit some of the easier trails while waiting for Matt and Mike to return. Despite trying to not get stuck alone, I did get high centered coming down a hill. Jacking up a rear tire and having the "minions" stack rocks under it is all it took to get free.

Also thanks a bunch to Wink for babysitting the 3 20yr olds that I had riding along!!! They had a great time with you.

No problem, they were certainly entertaining. If they got any good pics of the truck I'd like to see them.

[Regulator1175]

No problem, they were certainly entertaining. If they got any good pics of the truck I'd like to see them.

I am waiting for them to get posted and I will link them up for you. Ian (guy with the camera) is a photography major, so I am expecting them to be pretty decent.

[Trail X]

And the vids... don't forget the vids Mike.

[bartonmd]

And the vids... don't forget the vids Mike.

Yeah, yeah yeah... Had to return the trailer Monday night, and talked to the Cummins guys across the street from my buddy, to find out what this ticking was (valve adjustment overdue). Last night, I picked up my new MM252 and my wife's and my new phones (the mic on my Incredible died, so got a couple RAZR MAXX's for the wife and I), and tonight I am adjusting the valves on the truck... Oh, and there is an oil puddle under my bike again, so I need to actually order a NEW valve cover seal this time, instead of siliconing up the broken one like I thought worked last time...

The short answer is: "eh... when I get around to it"

Mike

[bartonmd]

Finally looking at the video, I see that from the side, the guys could see what I couldn't see from the front... The rock that destroyed the drive shaft... My fault solely because I was spotting, but when Wink said that he was getting hung up on a rock, all I saw when I came back there was that he had kicked the little rocks out, and his tire had another ledge in the rear to get over... I didn't catch that he was talking about him being hung up on the axle... As you can see when he first rolls over it, I wasn't concerned about that rock in the middle, because it wasn't high enough with all the rocks still in next to it, to matter to the rear diff. It's super-obvious in the video, from the side, but from the front, all I could see is that his front end couldn't get up the ledge.

[fishsticks]

Lots oe Monday morning quarterbacking opportunities here, but no real point.

I will say this Reg: You're rebuilding both diffs anyway now. Lock them both up. Try that hill again on the same tire. You'll be surprised how little throttle it will take.

That climb reminds me of a couple we have out here in TSF... only ours are usually wet.

[Regulator1175]

So at 21:10 I screwed myself by saying "Guess I am driving home in front wheel drive". NOthing like wishing more bad karma on myself.

Thanks for posting the video Mike. Please, everyone, I am learning here. Don't hesitate to offer up critiques, it is the only way I will be able to learn and avoid mistakes in the future.

[navigator]

would moving rocks be considered "cheating"?
I think at about the 2 minute mark I would have moved that medium sized rock by the front passenger tire.
From what I could tell that seemed to be the first thing to really stop you and then it seemed to get worse as more rocks were dug out.

[HARDTRAILZ]

There is no cheating...just trying to make it through. The rocks get moved every yome someone goes through

[bartonmd]

would moving rocks be considered "cheating"?
I think at about the 2 minute mark I would have moved that medium sized rock by the front passenger tire.
From what I could tell that seemed to be the first thing to really stop you and then it seemed to get worse as more rocks were dug out.

That "medium sized rock" probably weighed 300#, and the only way it could roll was down, more into the path, and under the center of the vehicle.

Rock stacking is pretty standard, after forward motion stops, but before bridging ladders or extraction equiptment comes out.

The rocks getting dug out was really a lot of the problem. Since this is a pretty steep hill that they just dump rocks and boulders down, they're all loose, and they all move around under you. That's a lot of what makes that hill so hard.

Mike

[The Roadie]

would moving rocks be considered "cheating"?

In the southwest (not sure what the culture is in the middle of the country), we recognize that thunderstorm runoff and snowmelt constantly changes the difficulty level and rock arrangements of the trails. The rocks aren't cemented into place, but some users welcome a varying challenge that changes from month to month, and year to year. But other users of lesser equippage enjoy getting through a trail, and may need to move rocks to make that possible.

If the lesser trucks constantly "improved" the trails, the challenge would evaporate over time, and reduce enjoyment for the better equipped rigs.

So the culture, as I understand it, is that it's acceptable to "improve ones lie" (unlike in golf - where the "play it where it sits" rule prevails), as long as you restore the course to its nature-built condition when you pass.

So the "Tread Lightly" user puts the rocks back.

The truly evil users are the hard-core enthusiasts who want to make some trails so difficult that the unworthy ones (in their eyes) can NEVER hope to conquer, and "improve" the trails by dropping slaps into them with dynamite when nobody's looking (like the Little Sluice at the Rubicon), but then there are oversight-authorized (County and BLM) efforts to ease up the difficulty level to allow access by more moderate vehicles, which resulted in more dynamite being used at the Gatekeeper and back at Little Sluice. There is hardly a more contentious issue (other than basic access) than the one between nature-adjustment and human-adjustment on the trails.

Right now my beloved Sandstone Canyon is blocked a couple of miles in by a natural rockfall I wish would get washed away, but a couple of years ago, the state closed the last 1/2 mile and made it hiking only, after I had guided about a half dozen runs up this fantastic slot:

[fishsticks]

There is no cheating...just trying to make it through. The rocks get moved every yome someone goes through

Plus...

So the "Tread Lightly" user puts the rocks back.

...Sums it up pretty well for trail etiquette around here.

In the video I posted in the lounge in the lounge of me climbing Waterfall, my spotter moves a big ass rock over about a foot for me.

[Trail X]

A couple things came to mind while watching that video, the first was:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
-Albert Einstein


Another is the inner and outer circle inspections and properly assessing a situation:
http://www.offroadtb.com/articles/vehic ... -planning/
It's a lesson to all of us to check under the center of the vehicle, not just look at the tires.

Last - NEVER help a winch with your vehicle's own power. It doesn't help anything, and only puts more strain on the winch in the form of impulse loads. If anything, try to prevent slack on the cable by applying some brakes when necessary. Only ever rev an engine up to assist with providing more wattage to the winch. Never be in a forward or reverse gear.

Regulator - most likely your rear diff/axle is ok. Your drive shaft was the fuse there, and I would doubt there was further damage internal to the axle. I would also assume your front diff is ok (however I would likely suspect that the disconnect is blown or the intermediate shaft is stripped).

[bartonmd]

There is no cheating...just trying to make it through. The rocks get moved every yome someone goes through

Plus...

So the "Tread Lightly" user puts the rocks back.

...Sums it up pretty well for trail etiquette around here.

In the video I posted in the lounge in the lounge of me climbing Waterfall, my spotter moves a big ass rock over about a foot for me.

This hill in particular, everything's so loose that it moves when you go over it, anyway. The park dumps more boulders down it every few months. It's not even on a real "trail" or anything. It's just a rock garden that you go down a really steep hill, then hit going back up the hill.

A couple things came to mind while watching that video, the first was:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
-Albert Einstein


Another is the inner and outer circle inspections and properly assessing a situation:
http://www.offroadtb.com/articles/vehic ... -planning/
It's a lesson to all of us to check under the center of the vehicle, not just look at the tires.

Last - NEVER help a winch with your vehicle's own power. It doesn't help anything, and only puts more strain on the winch in the form of impulse loads. If anything, try to prevent slack on the cable by applying some brakes when necessary. Only ever rev an engine up to assist with providing more wattage to the winch. Never be in a forward or reverse gear.

Regulator - most likely your rear diff/axle is ok. Your drive shaft was the fuse there, and I would doubt there was further damage internal to the axle. I would also assume your front diff is ok (however I would likely suspect that the disconnect is blown or the intermediate shaft is stripped).

The lines were a bit different, and it was VERY close to getting up it nearly every time. A little more throttle, little different line, rocks here and there, etc. Not just hitting the wall again and again.

What sucks is that the exact reason for him not being able to get up the last part, and breaking the pinion straps was PAINFULLY obvious from pretty much everywhere but where I was standing, and where I could see. The way it looked from where I was, he was just not QUITE getting up the ledge, and just had to hit it just a little harder. The time that he broke, he got up far enough that he should have been all the way up, but got stopped. At that point, I was going to look for what was hanging him up, and I heard "your driveshaft broke". Shit. Had the rock been in a slightly different place, I would have seen that something else was wrong when he stopped either after he was up the ledge, or before he got to the ledge, but as it was, it looked from where I was standing, like the ledge was the issue. My responsbility, because I was "spotter", but damn.

The front diff was leaking OIL when he got to the top. It wasn't just that it stopped powering.

I was in neutral, foot on the brake, engine at 3000rpm while I was winching.

I didn't know he was helping until I heard "my front diff broke, it's all you" (or something like that). Yeah, the winch impulse loads were getting a bit annoying, but he was about to the top, so I just rolled with it. I didn't want to tell him to get on the brakes over the radio, and stall the winch out, etc. I heard the winch cable making noise on the drum and asked if it was piling up on one side. I got an "eh, kinda", so kept going (maybe only 15 more feet to the end, anyway, and I didn't want to put it in Park and get out with a load on the winch.). Yeah, it happens. I get out and the cable was completely piled on the one side, and digging into the plate and cross-ties, and smashing the cable. I pulled it all back out and tensioned it and reeled it up right, and it looked and felt fine as it was going back in, so the tension likely pulled it back into shape.

Like anything else that goes wrong, there were definitely sevearl sides and several things that went wrong.

Mike

[Trail X]

I hear ya Mike. Just offering my thoughts up to Matt, since he asked for them.

An alternative to putting your truck in Neutral and pressing the brake is to chock tires, or to put it in 4LO and park. Do you agree?

[bartonmd]

I hear ya Mike. Just offering my thoughts up to Matt, since he asked for them.

An alternative to putting your truck in Neutral and pressing the brake is to chock tires, or to put it in 4LO and park. Do you agree?

It's cool, man...

At my grandparents' farm, we would always nose the bumper of the old Power Wagon with the Braden PTO winch up against a tree, and it would winch ANYTHING... Had 5/8" cable on it.

Even in 4LO, I prefer not to put that much potential stress on the park pawl. They really aren't THAT strong...

Mike

[Trail X]

That was why I was thinking low range. Nearly 1/3 the stress on the pawl. Still could be too much though.