Took a hit tonight, and the custom bumper held up great!

[Shdwdrgn]

@Regulator - Avast found a false-positive in their rules and have removed it. If you update the rules on your system now, are you able to see the pictures without the virus warning?

[Trail X]

Jeff, sorry to hear about your literal run-in with another car.

As far as the bent LCA:

I could see a severe bend backward on the passenger side arm limiting the left turn radius because it would throw the stop block, which is on the forward side of the arm, further forward WRT the lower ball joint, which limits the left turn radius.

If your knuckle is twisted, it would have to between the point at which the steering tie rod connects and the mounting flange for the wheel bearing. It would have to be severe though, to cause any limitation because it would have to bottom out the steering rack prior to hitting the left turn limiter block.

Drifting left sucks. I would have expected it to drift right, towards the damaged side. This can happen after an accident due to a wheel bearing that has been damaged and exhibits more resistance to spin (but I guess it could somehow exhibit less). If everything is rotating freely (or more accurately, with similar resistance) the drifting could be an artifact of the alignment, or the mounting of the tire, or a combination.

Is it possible that they mounted your old tire (assuming it was the same used one) backward? If you had been running with positive camber before (or equally possible, not matching camber, and they mounted the old tire correctly), and the tires wore in that way, if they corrected the camber and mounted your new tire so the taller tread is towards the engine, you would have a dissimilar radius of the center of rolling resistance to the vertical steering axis that goes through the two ball joints. The dissimilar radius would cause dissimilar torque to be applied to the knuckles, and therefore unequal compression forces on the tie rods, which would cause the wheel to drift towards the side with a higher radius of rolling resistance. If that is the case, and the wear is not too severe on the tires, it actually could "work itself out" by wearing the tires down a bit.

[Shdwdrgn]

OK lots of things to reply to... First, sorry I don't have any pics of the LCA. Without a lift, it's a difficult piece to get a good picture of. Probably the only option there would be removing it from the truck, which would of course destroy my currently alignment.

If the knuckle or hub had been twisted, I would have expected to see evidence that the axle was no long square to other areas along that piece... I found no evidence of that, so I moved on to checking other things.

Agreed on the drifting left. If I had drifted right, the wheel bearing would have been the first thing I checked.

The old tire *could* have been mounted in the opposite direction, however they performed a rotation at the same time, so this tire ended up on the rear right side, and next time they rotate side-to-side then all of the tires will be going in the opposite direction. This is the third time I've rotated this set of tires, so they've each had a share of positions and directions.

The alignment was previously dead-on, no need to correct for drift... which is part of what upsets me that we can't seem to find the cause of this issue. I believe he said they have adjusted the camber now to correct for the drift, but I assumed that would also mean the tires are at an incorrect angle and likely to wear out faster. However visually the tires all have very equal wear across the width at the moment, so I don't think there's anything there that would cause the drifting.

One thing I've been wondering... what happens if the TOP control arm were bent backwards? When a shop does an alignment, is there anything in the process that actually confirms both wheels are exactly in line with each other? Sure they make certain the wheels are parallel to each other, but if one wheel had been pushed backwards (let's say an equal amount of bend of both upper and lower control arms), would that be apparent in the alignment numbers?

One other thing, and perhaps someone can confirm for me... On the passenger side, my font axle is NOT in line between the wheel and the 4WD actuator. It looks like there is about an inch offset. Since my fender was also pushed backwards and crumpled, I have nothing reliable to measure against to determine if the wheel on this side is actually still centered in the right location, thus my previous question about the entire wheel being shoved backwards.

[Trail X]

I don't think they measure wheelbase at all, much less side vs side, since there is no adjustment for that. You could take a tape measure off of your rear wheel rim though and see for yourself.

I'm also not certain of that would manifest in drift. I guess it could by changing the vector on the steering rack.

Did they give you a copy of the alignment specs?

[Shdwdrgn]

Yeah I have printouts from at least three of the four recent alignments. I also believe that if the wheel had been shoved back or the control arms bent, it could be the cause of the wheel not turning all the way to the left now. And since two different things are still showing the front end is out of square, I'm pretty certain *something* has been bent, it's just a matter of figuring out what.

[Shdwdrgn]

All right, so here's what I *think* is happening...



After making several careful measurements off of common points on the frame (which obviously aren't *precise*, but it's the best I can do) and going to the center of the upper ball joint (red arrow), my guess is that the passenger side wheel is about 1/4" further back than the driver's side. None of my measurements showed less than 1/4", and one of them appeared to be as much as 1/2" difference. I guess the exact number doesn't really matter though, what's important is that measurements from both in front of and behind the wheel all agree that the passenger side has been moved backwards. And 1/4" would agree pretty strongly with what I saw on the lower control arm.

Now this was a bit more imprecise, but I also tried to measure the angle of the top of the frame piece (blue outline). Visually, the front appears correct, but the back side looks like it was pushed inwards a bit. My attempts to check the angle of the top of that piece correspond with that impression, the angle is slightly more towards the rear when compared to the driver's side.

Now if it is true that this frame piece is bent, then I have no clue how to go about fixing that, and I would imagine it would be expensive for a shop to do it. I know I'm asking for unprofessional advice here, but since you folks that do serious off-roading have seen a lot more bends and breaks than me, I thought I would at least get an opinion before taking it for repairs... My symptoms are that the steering does not quite turn all the way to the left, and the shop has had to adjust the alignment to compensate for a drift to the left. Does anyone have a similar experience of having one wheel pushed backwards, and if so, did you see similar problems?

[djthumper]

To determine if your frame is bent you need a plumb bob and be parked on level ground. Take 8 points, minimum, on the frame and transfer them to the ground and then measure for square. We use to use bumper horns and body mount points to transfer as they should be symetrical.

[Jrgunn5150]

Ive had a frame pulled for about 1,000 before. I will just reiterate that I believe you need to get it into a frame shop.

[Trail X]

Gosh, 1/4" doesn't seem like enough to mess up your steering as much as you've made it seem.

Plus, racking that bucket would take a whole lot of force. I guarantee that your UCA would bend before that shock bucket bent.

Is that the only picture you took when you were investigating?

Get the front end up in the air again, and remove both front wheels. Take a picture of each side with the wheels pointing straight ahead, try to get your camera as level as possible (use the onboard camera level if it has one). Turn the wheel to left lock, and take pictures of both control horns and where the knuckles touch their respective LCA stop. Turn the wheel to right lock, and do the same taking as similar pictures as possible. Post them up.

Also, can you post up the results from your latest alignment?

[Shdwdrgn]

Sorry, I twisted my back last week working on the radio, still have pains making it hard to sleep. However I did get an appointment next week with a frame shop to get some real measurements done, so we'll see what they find out.

[Shdwdrgn]

All right, haven't reported back lately but here's what's been going on... The frame shop did find some interesting info for me about the history of the vehicle. Apparently the frame has been folded slightly just behind the front wheels, so the front of the vehile is a full centimeter lower than it should be. He told me the only time he's seen that kind of damage is when someone got a vehicle clear off the ground and dropped down *hard* on something. It doesn't put the vehicle out of square left/right though, which is why I never noticed a problem before.

Also, the accident that caused me to make my steel bumper pulled the very front legs of the frame over about 4mm, but apparently that doesn't go back far enough to get into the steering components (and wasn't even enough to push the hood out of alignment with the side panels). Again, nothing that actually affected the previous alignment.

With that said, and some discussion of the problems I've been seeing, the guy broke out his tools and took some manual measurements. The one of most interest was when he measured from the front of the bolt that holds the shocks, diagonally back to a fixed point on the frame. This showed a 1/2" difference between sides basically proving the LCA had been bent backwards, so the alignment shop had to push it way forward to get the ball joints to line up again.

With that in mind, I finally went ahead and ordered a new LCA. That was installed yesterday morning, and a new alignment performed. Now I have the full range of turn in both directions (and I can easily turn into parking spaces at work again!), and the truck feels like it is tracking really straight again. Yesterday there was a lot of wind so it was hard to tell, but today felt pretty good, although it does feel like it's leaning ever so slightly to the left still. I'll be making a long trip down the interstate in another week, so will have plenty of time to feel it out then.

One concern though, the guy said that while it did still fall within spec, camber and caster on the right side are maxed out. I have no idea what that means, but since you were asking for number previously, I have the sheet with me and pasted the info below... perhaps someone can explain to me what it means and what the likely causes are (I would assume something is still bent)?

Front left:
Camber: -0.6° (range -1.0° 0.0°)
Caster: 3.5° (3.0° 4.0°)
Toe: 0.06in (-0.03in 0.08in)
SAI: 10.7°
Included angle: 10.2°

Front right:
Camber: -0.4° (range -1.0° 0.0°)
*Caster: 4.9° (3.5° 4.5°)
Toe: 0.07in (-0.03in 0.08in)
SAI: 11.1°
Included angle: 10.6°

Front:
Cross-Camber: -0.2° (range -0.3° 0.3°)
*Cross-Caster: -1.4° (-1.0° 0.0°)
Total Toe: 0.12in (-0.05in 0.15in)
Cross-SAI: -0.3°

Rear left:
Camber: -0.7°
Toe: 0.01in

Rear right:
Camber: -0.0°
Toe: 0.04in

Rear:
Cross-Camber: -0.6°
Total Toe: 0.05in
Thrust Angle: -0.03° (-0.40° 0.40°)

* These items are out of spec

[TBYODA]

Have a positive caster is not a big deal see tire rack link.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/ ... p?techid=4

[PROSPHOTO]

You should be fine with those alignment specs. The high negative cross caster should help the truck return straight out of a turn easier and track straighter with less wandering.

[Shdwdrgn]

You should be fine with those alignment specs. The high negative cross caster should help the truck return straight out of a turn easier and track straighter with less wandering.

You know how when you turn the wheel, it feels like there's a dip in the center that holds the wheels straight? To me when I'm going straight down the road, it feels like the wheel is already against the right wall, and any slightest thing in the road makes it want to push towards the left. And when you are trying to make a left turn, it feels like there's a long valley before I hit the slope on the left. So the angles that make the wheels want to naturally self-center feel to me like they are off-center. Hope that makes sense.

Before the accident that low zone was pretty well centered. There was a little bit of play between the slopes where I could put the steering wheel while driving down the highway, and it would pretty much stay where I put it. At least after replacing the LCA it is definitely better. Previously it always felts like the wheel was already up on the right-hand slope, making the truck want to drift left unless there was a huge wind or a steep crown to the road pushing me towards the right.

[Trail X]

Cross caster is just a reading of the difference between left and right caster. That will be the result of not having the front right caster (which is out of spec) matching the front left caster. You're supposed to have -0.5 degrees of cross caster, which is supposed to help against the crown of the road. Because you have -1.5 cross caster, its trying to center you towards a slight left turn.

When your alignment shop said that they were at the limits on the right side, it meant that they were at the limits of the motion of the LCA. The LCA has slots in which it can move relative to the frame. They are saying that the slots have been maxed out with no more travel. This can either imply that your frame mount where the LCAs attach has been tweaked, or that your UCA has been tweaked.

The caster out of spec is the source of your non-centering issues. I'm guessing this round was better than the last time, which is why you feel some improvement.

[Shdwdrgn]

Since the frame shop didn't show any bending left/right, nor any twisting at all, I'm gonna go back to my own measurements that indicated the back side of the UCA mounting point had been pushed inwards by about 1/4 inch. The radius out from that point to the upper ball would probably cause an actual backwards offset of about an inch (roughly guestimating), and that could explain why the new LCA is out of spec -- because it can't move backwards far enough to properly aline with the upper ball joint. Does that make sense or am I over-rationalizing?

For comparison, here's the last alignment I had done before the LCA was replaced. I was driving on this since March 17th, so a little over a month, and it was definitely pulling solid to the left.

Front left:
Camber: -0.5° (range -1.0° 0.0°)
*Caster: 1.7° (3.0° 4.0°)
Toe: 0.05in (-0.03in 0.08in)
SAI: 10.9°
Included angle: 10.4°

Front right:
Camber: -0.9° (range -1.0° 0.0°)
*Caster: 1.9° (3.5° 4.5°)
Toe: 0.04in (-0.03in 0.08in)
SAI: 11.6°
Included angle: 10.6°

Front:
*Cross-Camber: 0.4° (range -0.3° 0.3°)
Cross-Caster: -0.3° (-1.0° 0.0°)
Total Toe: 0.09in (-0.05in 0.15in)
Cross-SAI: -0.7°

Rear left:
Camber: -0.5°
Toe: -0.05in

Rear right:
Camber: -0.2°
Toe: 0.06in

Rear:
Cross-Camber: -0.3°
Total Toe: 0.01in
Thrust Angle: -0.12° (-0.40° 0.40°)

[Trail X]

I'm not sure, the more that I think of it, the more I think your guy should have been able to get that in spec. I think he needs to rotate the LCA back to actually gain the correct caster, away from the limit of its motion...

[Shdwdrgn]

He told me it was all the way back against the bolts, there was no more room left to move it. That would make sense though if the UCA were still bent backwards and the LCA is now straight -- trying to align a bent piece against a straight piece doesn't allow much wiggle-room.

[Trail X]

If I were you, it might be worth getting a different place to try aligning it. He may be back all the way against the bolts, but if I'm thinking about it right, he should still be able to rotate the LBJ back. Unless your UCA is bent backward - he should have been able to get it in spec.

Also - if you can get them to show you where the bolts are limiting the movement of the LCA plate, you can go in there and grind out some of the slot to give the plate a little more movement (not a lot of grinding, but a little should help).

[Shdwdrgn]

One thing to keep in mind... before the accident there were never any issues with the alignment. Everything tracked perfectly straight, and I didn't need to do any modifications to the previous LCA's when I replaced them last Fall. The fact that they need to try and compensate to get the alignment in spec pretty much shows that something it still bent out of line.

Someone mentioned previously that they thought the UCA would bend before the frame mounting points would bend. That doesn't make sense to me because the UCA is a large cast piece. Cast pieces tend to break before they bend, at least in my experience with non-automotive cast pieces. Maybe someone can clear this up for me?