Rear axles not sliding in

by **caseyk08** » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:21 pm

Hey guys,
Im replacing my rear axle bearings, seals, rotors and pads. I have my 2007 Envoy up on jackstands, the diff all apart... So please excuse me if this is obvious, but:
I cannot slide the axles in to remove the c-rings. Even with the center retaining pin removed, the axles only move about an 1/8th of an inch. Ive followed the guide posted here.
Currently, I have removed wheels, brakes, rotors, diff cover, retaining pin...
Quickly running out of daylight and confidence!
I noticed two electronic components on the axle, Im assuming transducers for ABS or stabilitrac... Could they be holding the axle? I hope not, because theyre torx fasteners that have now been stripped.

On the bright side, my gears look great!
Thanks for your help and sorry for the urgency!

YouTube Videos · by **Trail X** » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:26 pm

The vehicle speed sensors might be holding your axle in place. I didn't think they would though. But if you have your brake rotors and the cross pin removed, that seems to be the only remaining item.

by **caseyk08** » Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:01 pm

I can't quite figure out what else it could be. I can't seem to find any documentation saying they must be removed other than an autozone how-to. Tomorrow morning I'm going to try to remove the sensors. Rounded, seized torx bolts - my favorite. Damned sensor is plastic too! No torch! :wallbash:

by **caseyk08** » Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:39 am

Well, the speed sensors do not hold the axles in position. Now taking any and all suggestions!

by **Karo** » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:53 am

Are you sure you have removed the cross pin that holds the spiders completely? The axle could only be pushed in when the cross pin is removed.
Found a picture from the old site:

MY Youtube Channel · by **TBYODA** » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:53 am

caseyk08 wrote:Well, the speed sensors do not hold the axles in position. Now taking any and all suggestions!

IMHO I think for the guys that have done this before, some pictures might help trouble shoot.

by **Karo** » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:55 am

TBYODA wrote:
caseyk08 wrote:Well, the speed sensors do not hold the axles in position. Now taking any and all suggestions!
IMHO I think for the guys that have done this before, some pictures might help trouble shoot.

I agree!

by **flyme** » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:10 am

The electronic components are the wheel sensors. Now worries if they are stripped, you can remove them with a pair of vice grips, if you can get them close with the axle still on the vehicle. It could be really tight seals preventing the axle from sliding in.

by **bartonmd** » Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:22 pm

I'd also like to see a picture of what you're working with...

Mike

by **v7guy** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:19 am

Have you tried giving a solid wack to the axle to see if it just needs a small impact to slide in?

It really should push in with little to no effort with the pin removed, but when all else fails I like to use a hammer or the blue wrench.

by **caseyk08** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:18 am

As requested, PICTURES!
With everything removed this is what I was looking at (the axles are pushed in as far as they go):

A little distance on that picture:

Hub end of the axles: No visible obstructions.

All that gear oil! Brakes are COVERED!
And the side that the seal wasn't compromised:

Everything is all buttoned back up now. Might just bring it to a shop. Sucks working in the cold on the ground covered in gear oil. I'm still very curious why I couldn't get them to slide in.
As you all can see, the pinion pin is removed and in a box on the ground. The top two pictures, as I stated, are of the axles pushed all the way in! Both axles do not go in further than that. I used a 2.5lb sledge and some wood to pound both of them in, no luck. The c-clips spin around the axle shaft, it isn't like they're seized to the gears or anything. Both axles move back and forth about 1/8". On the outboard side, I cleaned the axles up, thinking maybe it was corrosion or something on the axle keeping it in (I saw BartonMD posted something similar on the OS when doing his S10). No luck.
I pin the pin back in a few times and changed the orientation of the carrier (I think it's called, the big thing that holds all the little gears in) by turning the drive shaft, also no luck.

It really feels like there is something holding them in. I've done a decent amount of gearbox work on windlasses on yachts, and generally when things are well oiled and free-moving but don't come out, it isn't a matter of a bigger hammer, it's a matter of removing something else.
I was tempted to start taking out the spider gears, but I decided that that wouldn't help anyways, since the two vertical gears are held in by the axles and c clips. And from what I've heard about resetting them, it sounds a bit like playing 52 pick-up.

I'm starting to think that maybe the bearings have created a channel in the axles. I don't think they're bad enough for that, though. Very little noise - it's the seal that I thought was the issue.

by **v7guy** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:12 am

I'm lost personally, it really is as easy as removing the pin, pushing in the axle and letting the c clip fall out. If you watch the following video and start it at 4:55 you'll see. It's worked for me just like that every time.

by **caseyk08** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:24 am

v7guy wrote:I'm lost personally

That makes two of us. It looks so simple. The how to threads don't ever mention difficulty. It seems like the easiest step of the whole procedure. Half of me was thinking I was making some terribly stupid mistake. The other half of me thought it is just my luck to have the one exception.

YouTube Videos · by **Trail X** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:42 am

Were you able to watch it slide that 1/8" from the diff side?

I ask to see if maybe the splines are seized on, and the 1/8" movement is just the side gear moving back and forth. If you got any relative movement between the shaft and the side gear, though, my theory is shot.

by **v7guy** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:46 am

Did the axle wiggle around a bit?
It could be the bearing is really garbage and the axle is buggered up giving a lot of resistance to the movement of the axle, so the axle can move in it's wear point pretty easy, but it's hard to get it out, especially if the cage holding the rollers is gone.

James also brings up a good idea, but I'd be almost as surprised to see the splines seized as I would the bearings that far gone.

by **caseyk08** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:43 am

James, I thought the axles may be stick in the gears as well. I did see the c-clip change it's position relative to the inboard face of the spider gears, though, suggesting that the axles are moving independently of the gears. From what little I could see of the splines (IE the inboard edge), they look to be in good shape. I haven't actually looked at the splines, obviously, but from what I've seen online, they look to be about an inch long? I'd just think that if there was some movement, even if there was corrosion or something gumming up the splines, that a swift whack with a mallet would at least start to slide them. I just got a deep thud, that I would equate to the sound of the last hit of seating a bearing.

v7, I was thinking that may be it as well. I'm glad you asked if it wiggled, because I did not think of that as evidence for severe bearing wear at the time. However, there was no noticeable wiggle. While I wasn't testing for wiggle directly, I would have noticed it, I'm sure.
What I cannot come to terms with in a severe bearing wear scenario, is that the bearings themselves seem fine. No wobble on the wheels, no grinding or squealing noises. I'd imagine that with a bearing failure such as that, I would've been hearing something while driving, and for quite some time. I thought I was going in to replace a seal, and was replacing bearings while I was in there since these bearings have 130k miles on them.

Of note, both passenger and driver side axles exhibit the same degree of in and out motion.
The passenger side is the side with the compromised seal. I find it highly coincidental, too coincidental actually, to think that both splines seized in a well oiled gearbox or both bearings wore down to the point of capturing the axles.

YouTube Videos · by **Trail X** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:38 pm

Closest thing I've found yet: http://www.gmfullsize.com/forum/showthread.php?t=267983

Sounds like you just need to push harder.

by **caseyk08** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:02 pm

James, I appreciate the research. I was following that path, but then figured that since there was no difference with the sensor removed that the sensor couldn't be it! I guess it was all along. SOB! I saw what looked like splines in the hole where the speed sensor goes, I suppose that was the reluctor ring for the sensor. I would've thought it would be flush with the axle.
Good idea with the ratchet strap, I would've never thought of that!
It's at the shop now, so don't fret over it. But hopefully they don't 2 fruitless days on it like I did!

by **Wahugg** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:08 pm

Out of curiosity, did the shop have any problems in removing the axle? If so did they figure out the cause?

-Wahugg

by **caseyk08** » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:09 am

Just got it back this weekend. They had no problem. They looked at me like "Well of course the axles don't slide out"
Apparently, all 4 channel ABS systems, that is I believe, 2006+ tbs/envoys, do not just slide out because of the two sensors on the axles. This is just what James found online. The mechanic said they use some special tool to push them in.
$650 all said and done. Oh well, at least they used my parts and I found a mechanic that maintains a fleet of TBs!

Offroad Trailblazers and Envoys