Offroad Trailblazers and Envoys

Yet another solid axle swap plan?

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by rScherzer » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:22 am

I have been looking at the very limited SAS conversions on here and other sites, I see a lot of people start out with a idea then sell off the rig or disappear with little info left behind for the rest of us.
My idea :hmm: to plan out a SAS that would not beet a monster truck. It sounds silly but a ton of lift and anything bigger that 35" tires are not really what I was looking at.
Here is what I had in mind.....if possible.
Using a Dana 30 front axle (not sure if I would go leaf or coil)
Using a rear sump oil pan (clearance and lower lift)
Toyota steering gear
custom bits to make it all work.
I'm thinking 6-7" of lift over stock would be nice. That way driving is daily, towing, highway use would not be diminished.
Also from what I gathered off the interweb the Dana 30 is about the same size as the 44, outside of a bigger ring gear and pumpkin. The pumpkin/ center section is what lead me to think the 30 would give me the most room to work with while keeping the lift in a reasonable range. The ring gear is a tad smaller at 7 1/8 vs 7.2 for the stock TB front. I'm not planning on rock crawling up a waterfall or jumping it threw the deserts of the Mojave. Again this is all speculation and thoughts. The big obstacle is when I showed my wife a few pictures of a SAS Trailblazer she said that its ridiculous....and "who needs a truck that high"
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by TBYODA » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:59 pm

A Dana 30 might be a little light weight for a 5,000 lbs SUV.
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by rScherzer » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:00 pm

TBYODA wrote:A Dana 30 might be a little light weight for a 5,000 lbs SUV.


Good info. Im looking at a bunch of jeep forums and googling things. I totally spaced the weight :wallbash: I'm going to look and see if that had run the 30 in the Cherokee. I had searched a little on the Hp and torque rating and couldn't find a definitive answer. Just a bunch of this year has weak axle shafts, that year had better (____) I would guess that a 4.0L jeep engine would be close to the 4.2 power ratings. Then again we are talking 2 valves per cylinder and cast iron vs 4 valves per cylinder and aluminium. :coffee:
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by skotti » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:59 pm

Weight wouldn't be a big issue, I don't think. 30s come in grands too, and they're just as heavy. Number wise I believe the 4200 is more powerful, even more then the v8 jeep uses.

I've not done a sas on this platform. It might be easier. But I'm sure it's still a lot of work. Enough so I wouldn't want to have to question it being strong enough out of the box.

Being in 4x4 club, with tons of jeeps...I'd never put a 30 in anything. Less you want to put 3x the money into it, and the only reason to consider a 30 to begin with is cheap.
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by ErikSS » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:11 pm

If you want a template to follow, look up Chevycrew and Dirty Anton builds. I know Caleb used those as a starting point and his truck seems pretty solid. I have bought a Dana 60 front axle for a SAS. My project is defunded because of a house purchase. Just have to wait for funds to come back!

P.S. Using a Dana 30 is a very bad idea. Scrap that and look heavier duty. I'm not even a fan of a Dana 44 under this platform.
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by rScherzer » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:24 pm

ErikSS wrote:If you want a template to follow, look up Chevycrew and Dirty Anton builds. I know Caleb used those as a starting point and his truck seems pretty solid. I have bought a Dana 60 front axle for a SAS. My project is defunded because of a house purchase. Just have to wait for funds to come back!

P.S. Using a Dana 30 is a very bad idea. Scrap that and look heavier duty. I'm not even a fan of a Dana 44 under this platform.


Those were the some of the builds I looked at. From what I see they all used the stock TB oil pan. I wonder if using a rear sump oil pan would allow the vehicle to sit lower? I did a little more digging on for information. The GAWR for the front of my TB shows to be 2950 lbs. I then searched axle weight ratings and found the Dana 30 was to light.

This info was stolen from Wikipedia

Axle GAWR (Max) Manufacturer
Dana 30 2,770 lbs Dana Holding Corporation
Dana 35 2,770 lbs Dana Holding Corporation
Dana 44 3,500 lbs Dana Holding Corporation
Dana 50 5,000 lbs Dana Holding Corporation
Dana 60 6,500 lbs Dana Holding Corporation
Dana S 60 7,000 lbs Dana Holding Corporation
Dana 70 10,000 lbs Dana Holding Corporation
Dana 80 12,000 lbs Dana Holding Corporation
Dana S 110 14,706 lbs Dana Holding Corporation
Ford 9-inch axle 3,600 lbs Ford Motor Company
Ford 8.8 axle 3,800 lbs Visteon
Sterling 10.5 axle 9,750 lbs Visteon
10.5" Corporate 14 Bolt Differential 8,600 lbs American Axle
11.5 AAM 10,000 lbs American Axle
10.5 AAM 9,000 lbs American Axle
Saginaw 9.5-inch axle 6,000 lbs American Axle
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by rScherzer » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:27 pm

skotti wrote:Weight wouldn't be a big issue, I don't think. 30s come in grands too, and they're just as heavy. Number wise I believe the 4200 is more powerful, even more then the v8 jeep uses.

I've not done a sas on this platform. It might be easier. But I'm sure it's still a lot of work. Enough so I wouldn't want to have to question it being strong enough out of the box.

Being in 4x4 club, with tons of jeeps...I'd never put a 30 in anything. Less you want to put 3x the money into it, and the only reason to consider a 30 to begin with is cheap.


I was looking more for fitment. Not price. Thanks for the input!
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by rScherzer » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:37 pm

Just got a price on the rear sump oil pan form EMTech Motorsports.
Robert

Would you be operating the vehicle in high angle condition?

Our pan has less nominal oil capacity than the stock pan (about 2 qts less). We have not tested it in a off road high angle condition as was intended mainly for engine swaps.

If you wish to buy a pan and use it in this high angle condition - you assume 100% of the risk involved.

Pan is US$635 and includes a used pick up tube.
If there is enough people that need a high capacity rear sump pan -we could make one - but we need a minimum order of 20 to cover the development and tooling costs. If you wanted to set up a group buy and distribute the pans we would work with you.

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Last edited by rScherzer on Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by ErikSS » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:20 pm

I know of one guy that mad some adjustments to his stock pan hoping to lower the vehicle. Last I knew, he had found that steering angles also forced the height of the vehicle. But I sent him a message to check on here. Maybe, oh maybe we will find a v7guy.
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by rScherzer » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:02 am

I have been looking at the Jeep front steering setups to see how and what. It would be nice to have a 6-7" lift from stock. I like the big 40" monster truck look but that would ruin it for daily driving, towing and family trips across the US without some doll hairs for gas!
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by bartonmd » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:38 pm

I think Ben (Nakashige) used a Dana 44, and even with chromo shafts and stuff, he still breaks axles and stuff, IIRC. Go D60 and be done with it. People with Rubicons swap out the D44 (even though it's not a real truck 44) when they go with 37"+ because they always break stuff. I can see why the east coast guys do the 44, because they're easier to find in the land of no farm trucks, but you live in a place like the midwest, where I'd imagine there are 1-ton 4x4 farm trucks that are rusted out, that sell for like $1k all day long. Buy one, take the D60F/14B rear and T-case out from under it and scrap the rest.

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by rScherzer » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:56 pm

bartonmd wrote:I think Ben (Nakashige) used a Dana 44, and even with chromo shafts and stuff, he still breaks axles and stuff, IIRC. Go D60 and be done with it. People with Rubicons swap out the D44 (even though it's not a real truck 44) when they go with 37"+ because they always break stuff. I can see why the east coast guys do the 44, because they're easier to find in the land of no farm trucks, but you live in a place like the midwest, where I'd imagine there are 1-ton 4x4 farm trucks that are rusted out, that sell for like $1k all day long. Buy one, take the D60F/14B rear and T-case out from under it and scrap the rest.

Mike

Good information! Thanks man.
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by v7guy » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:11 pm

A rear sump pan can get you a few inches lower, mines fabricated. It's a stock pan with the flange cut off then a rear sump welded on, it has more capacity than stock, it warped a smidge but seals up.
Chevycrew and Anton have similar builds because you're fairly limited in where things can go. You can only go so far up before you hit the frame, not using high steer might help, there's only so much room for shocks/coilovers before you gotta go through the fender and hood and move the coolant reservoir, the fuse block, the air intake tract etc. The front crossmember under the crank pulley determines a lot and even if you remove it you've got a crank pulley an inch above the top of the crossmember do removing the crossmember might get you an inch and a half lower. Add to that you can't go too far forward before you have no place to mount the steering box on the frame rail... unless you mount some high steer arms backwards and have the drag link and everything behind the axle. But that creates its own issues.
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by HawkeyeC25 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:27 pm

If getting the oil pan up and out of the way is a big issue on a build like this, has anyone ever thought of doing a body lift and ALSO lifting the powertrain? Seems if you did a 3" body lift, you could easily fabricate a couple motor mounts and trans mount to get everything else up another 3 inches? Just a thought...
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by Diacom » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:27 pm

Robert,
If you do decide to go this route and are looking for a Dana 60 with the driver side offset and a 14 bolt rear, I have them. Both will need to be gone through, but otherwise are complete. I'm a state away, but I'm sure we could make arrangements to meet somewhere in between. You can PM me if you're interested.
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by rScherzer » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:20 pm

Diacom wrote:Robert,
If you do decide to go this route and are looking for a Dana 60 with the driver side offset and a 14 bolt rear, I have them. Both will need to be gone through, but otherwise are complete. I'm a state away, but I'm sure we could make arrangements to meet somewhere in between. You can PM me if you're interested.


Thanks!
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by KingBird » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:40 pm

HawkeyeC25 wrote:If getting the oil pan up and out of the way is a big issue on a build like this, has anyone ever thought of doing a body lift and ALSO lifting the powertrain? Seems if you did a 3" body lift, you could easily fabricate a couple motor mounts and trans mount to get everything else up another 3 inches? Just a thought...


That's definitely doable, the only con that I can immediately think of would be increased angles on your propshaft and driveshaft causing issues with your u-joints but minor tweaking here and there could alleviate that.

EDIT: After thinking about this, that would bind the ever loving hell out of your half-shafts, the angle between the transfer case and front diff wouldn't change because your diff and transfer case would both raise 3" so your half-shafts would end up suffering.
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by Nexus1155 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:06 pm

Honestly, this seems a lot more trouble than it is worth for a rig like this, but if you are all for it then go balls to the wall. I'm not too educated on dana setups, but just want to emphasize what was said above. The half shafts would more than likely be getting wrecked. Detroit Boots on em may help slightly but the angle is a good amount and they are not meant to run like that forever.
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by skotti » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:23 pm

The talk about the lifting of the motor and stuff was, making room for a bigger dif chunk with sas, and still maintain it being relatively low.
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by rScherzer » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:45 am

I have a email off to one of the other members on here that swapped a dana 60 in his TB. I wonder what the minimum lift would be? Maybe one of you guys would know.
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