Offroad Trailblazers and Envoys

Regulator's Side Extraction...

Dumping ground for offroad Trailblazer or Envoy general discussion.

by bartonmd » Tue May 22, 2012 9:18 am

Making this into a new thread, per James' request.

Those who were there can fill in the details, but apparently Matt was climbing this ridge, when the left side of it gave way under him. The pictures and vids that I've seen are as follows, and are posted in this thread:

Image

Image


Let's see if this one works... If not, Matt is supposed to be uploading it to his Photobucket or Youtube:
https://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn#! ... 0470301080


Angle showing the recovery vehicle:
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by HARDTRAILZ » Tue May 22, 2012 10:37 am

You know the shackle welds are solid...
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by Trail X » Tue May 22, 2012 12:58 pm

So, first, what caught the truck and kept it from traveling further down the hill? Was it resting on a tree? Must have been a scary moment for Matt. It doesn't look like much of the trail is gone there, was he just too close to the edge?

Next, regarding the actual recovery, did noone have a winch? Recovering a vehicle from below at a cross angle probably isn't the first option I'd try. I'm actually very surprised one of the tires didn't come off a bead. My biggest worry was that one of the pulls could have shifted the vehicle's weight or the ground under it, sending the truck down the hill further. Around the 1:00 mark I thought it was going down the hill backwards.

That appears to be a very long recovery strap, how long? Looks to be 60'?! I didn't see a blanket or anything on it - which might have been a very good idea in this situation, considering the pulls that were performed.

I'd also caution against recovering in reverse. It's much harder on the drivetrain. The gears in the diffs are also designed to transmit the power in forward gear best. Mike can hit more on this, but I also understand putting the truck in 1st for an extraction is the safest on the transmission due to bypassing the sprag (I could have that wrong).

Was there one person designated as the marshall? It seemed like there were a few people yelling orders.

To me, the best recovery would have been hooking to a slider with a strap from below, and putting tension on it with a vehicle - just to keep the truck from sliding further. Then do a snatch block to a tree up the hill, and have the winching vehicle behind Matt's truck. Maybe there was something keeping that from being a viable option?

Either way, I'm glad noone got hurt, and that the truck came out.

Would love to hear the whole story in more detail. This is something we can all probably learn a lot from, so I hope we can have some good open discussion.
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by bartonmd » Tue May 22, 2012 2:04 pm

In that particular case, reverse may have been the best way to do it, simply because of the angle. You want, first and formost, the strongest axle to have the most traction. If he was pulling forward, and the rear was coming off the ground instead of the front, it would have been shock-loading the front end, when you really don't want to do on this platform...

In general, though, yes. Pull forward, selector in 1, so that the sprag clutch locks up and takes the load off of the input sprag (does this when selecting 3, 2, or 1), and the LO/Rev clutch locks up, taking the load off of the 1st gear 1-way roller.

In reverse, the only thing holding you is that LO/REV clutch, instead of the LO/REV clutch sharing load with the 1-way roller. Reverse in this transmission is the 1st gear planitary rotating backwards, so the purpose of that clutch is to take the load while the 1st gear 1-way roller is in the overrun direction, not the hold direction.

I was also pretty sure that a bead was going to be un-seated. My first thought was that he should have been turned into the pull, spinning tires slowly, so as not to pop a bead or break a tie-rod or ball joint. However, this could also make it more unstable between pulls, if they don't get on and off the gas at the same time.

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by Trail X » Thu May 24, 2012 9:19 am

No other feedback from the guys that were there? I'm not trying to point fingers or anything, but I would like to learn from your experience!
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by HARDTRAILZ » Thu May 24, 2012 9:27 am

Wasnt there. I know the park's crew was there watching them for safety...
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by hotness » Thu May 24, 2012 10:23 am

No body had a winch in our group so that was out. There were only two options to pull from- Where he got pulled from, or up at the top of the hill. I drove to top of the hill and tried to pull him from his front bumper and he ended up sliding in further. The strap was actually two straps together with a shackle. I think the original plan was to pull on his slider to get his ass back in the trail and then I would pull him up the hill forwards, but Matt changed his mind and decided to turn out. Also, yes the recovering vehicle had to pull backwards because his wheels were coming off the ground and he would have no traction.


Also I'm not sure if it would make a difference but Matt did not air down. So maybe that had something to do with the bead not breaking when it should have.
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by fishsticks » Thu May 24, 2012 10:52 am

hotness wrote:The strap was actually two straps together with a shackle.



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by HARDTRAILZ » Thu May 24, 2012 10:54 am

Shackle is scary in that use. Shoulda looped the straps together w a stick or similar.
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by Trail X » Thu May 24, 2012 11:00 am

Was there only one other vehicle there to do the extraction? Given your limitations of having no winch, I would have strongly considered anchoring via a slider against sideways movement, then pulling from the front. The amount of force required to move a vehicle sideways against gravity is immense!

As for the shackle holding the two straps together, that's a terrible idea! The stretchy straps store a ton of energy in them during a pull. If one of those straps let go, that shackle would have been buried in someone's sheet metal - or worse - someone's skull. The best method is to daisy chain them together like this. No need for any heavy objects.
Image
You can also put something light (like a magazine) in the middle to make de-coupling them easier:
Image

A blanket or jacked to act as a parachute could have also helped alleviate damage due to a possible failure.

I agree, not aired down could have had something to do with it.

Any more info would be great.
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by Gordinho80 » Thu May 24, 2012 11:35 am

That looks like it was a scary situation for Matt. How did his truck end up in that ditch like that??? I agree with the others about the shackle as the connection for the 2 straps. Either of those straps gives, that shackle is a missile! At TECORE, we had to connect 2 straps to get me up the ledge, we looped them like in James' pic and placed a small branch in the loop to help with de-coupling.
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by navigator » Thu May 24, 2012 12:11 pm

you know when you pick up a tow strap at a discount store you're thinking about getting stuck in the sand at the beach or in a mud hole or something nice and easy. Recoveries like that show why it is good have good equipment all the way around.

I expect those are not cheap harbor freight tow straps and if they had have been one of the vehicles would have had some shackle damage!
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by navigator » Thu May 24, 2012 12:13 pm

BTW, thanks for the pics and video, I think most of us could get something out of it.
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by hotness » Thu May 24, 2012 12:32 pm

The straps were actually not snatch straps. I had a snatch strap but nobody wanted to use it. I was not in charge of this recovery, just letting you know what happened. The straps are not cheap harbor freight ones. Mine was a 3x30 from 4 wheel parts and the other one was a 4x something (not mine but didn't look cheap). Matt's truck got like that because it was all loose sand and I suspect if he was going a bit faster he may have been fine but as soon as his truck slowed down it started to sink in and slide down the side.
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by Trail X » Thu May 24, 2012 1:07 pm

The straps were both tow straps? as opposed to stretchy/recovery straps? (just asking for clarification, I know some people consider a snatch strap something other than a recovery strap, but I often use 'snatch strap' synonymously with 'dynamic' or 'recovery strap')

Its ok to use a stretchy strap with a non stretchy strap, but there should always be at least ONE stretchy strap when doing a dynamic extraction like this.
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by hotness » Thu May 24, 2012 1:36 pm

I agree. That's why I offered up my snatch strap but like I said I was not in charge of this recovery.
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by navigator » Thu May 24, 2012 2:46 pm

it wasn't clear from the video, did the pullee have enough space at the bottom of the hill if the strap had been stretchy? It looked like he had some vegetation behind him where he might not have been able to get much further back. Looks like a very tough extraction for no winches present. Glad everyone made it out ok with no damage mentioned.
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by Regulator1175 » Thu May 24, 2012 4:33 pm

I am on the road for the next couple hours and then tied up this evening. I will get an explanation posted tomorrow and try to answer everyone's questions. if someone wants to call maine I'll be glad to explain it over the phone and they can post something up today.
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by Regulator1175 » Sun May 27, 2012 11:50 pm

OK folks, I will do my best to recreate the situation and explain what we did and why we did it.

The hill is called Chicken Shit hill, it is about a 50 yard climb at 45-60 degrees. The trail is just as wide as the trucks wheel base and not much more room. There is a slight right turn as you near the top. The real difficulty of the hill, and the rest of the park, is that it is all very loose gravel and sand. There is no traction to be had once you lose momentum. I also did not air down, so that played a big part in this as well. In my opinion that was my first mistake.

I made a run at the hill, taking it pretty slow not really worried about needing momentum to make it to the top. I have done much steeper hill climbs then this. I was not worried in the least, nor was I concerned about leading inexperienced trucks up this hill. I failed to take in to account the ground surface and that is what got me into trouble. This was my second mistake.

About 75% of the way up the I lost traction and started spinning. I knew I wasn't going to be able to make it so I started to back down to make another run at it with more speed. As I was backing down, the trail crumbled out from under my rear drivers tire and pulled the entire truck off the side of the trail. As I started to slide, knowing that I would roll the truck if I got the passenger tires over the edge, I threw it into drive and hit the gas hard. My hope was that I could dig myself into the sand enough to get the truck to stop sliding. This worked, but at that point the truck was sitting at 45 degrees on the slope.

At this point I shut everything down, got my children out of the truck, and went for a walk with AJ to see where the exit to trail was from the top of the hill. We got his truck around at strapped up to my from bumper with a static strap. He offered his snatch strap, but the way my truck was sitting I wanted a slow controlled pull, not to be just jerked out. We got into the trucks and I told Kevin (Wink) that he had control and that we were watching him. AJ started pulling and the only thing we accomplished was to pull me further up the hill, but were not able to get my truck over the crest and back onto the trail. At this point I am still 45 degrees sideways, with the nose sitting about 60 degrees in the air. I had no oil pressure and all the dash board was lit up so I shut the truck down and told everyone that we were going to have to do this with my truck dead. I didn't want to blow the engine and roll it all in the same day!

After sitting and scratching our heads for a while, the only plan I could come up with was to get my truck turned sideways where I could drop down the other side of the trail. This meant for a long distance pull, but it did not allow for much room behind the recovery truck. I was the one leading the recovery, and I did tell them to D ring the two straps together, I realize this was a huge risk and will claim this as my third mistake of the day. AJ did offer the snatch strap again, but I do not believe there was enough space behind the recovery truck to have used it.

Everyone has seen the video and knows what came next and what the end result was. I will point out that through all of this I was still talking to Kevin, and so were the recovery drivers. When you here everyone yelling in the video it was because the recovery truck did not hear Kevin's direction. I was free at that point, had turned the truck back on and knew I had traction. I yelled out out the window to get me off the tow strap and about that time the recovery truck was getting ready to make another tug. That is why everyone was yelling at him to stop.

During the entire process I had the park staff at the bottom of the hill watching me. They did ask if any of us had a winch, no one did, and said that he would have preferred if we winched out. I told him I would have preferred that as well, it just wasn't an option. You use the tools you have available right?

The end result was that we were successful and no major damage to my truck. In hind site I think if I aired down I would have made the hill, but if I was aired down during that tug I would have lost the bead on both front tires. Both of my front wheel bearings are objecting to the stress they endured though, but I replace them every 6 months anyway so that isn't a huge issue.

I do feel in the end that we did what needed to be done, there were some safety mistakes, but ultimately we got my truck out and avoided any real damage. I was even asked 15 minutes later to assist in recovering a Dodge Durango who was inches from rolling his truck. The park officials asked them to leave following the recovery.

I hope that was clear and concise enough, now fire away who has questions.
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by Regulator1175 » Tue May 29, 2012 7:23 pm

So did I lose everyone's interest? I am sincerely interested to hear your thoughts and what you would have done different. Like stated above, we can all learn from this, myself especially. This was my first trip that I have taken the lead on and am wanting everyone's thoughts.
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